Are YHWH's instructions black and white, or are there gray areas? If there are gray areas, list them.
RB: Black and white. The gray areas are between our ears.
DH: When one removes the black and white of Torah, then ALL one finds is differing shades of gray....but it is all gray.
MC: Tzit Tzi's - suppose to wear them...but there are all kinds of ways to tie them - unless you are Rabbinic. This is where we get to be creative!
WH: loves RB's answer lol We either serve YAH (light/white) or we serve the flesh (darkness/black) ...we can't serve 2 masters (gray)
GG: For the most part YHWH's instructions are black and white, but there are times when there are gray areas. For instant we are suppose to rest on Sabbath but than again if we see someone in need of help, we should help that person. So there are gray areas....like Diane said...differing shades of gray.
GH: I believe HIs commands are an invitation to intimacy with Him as well as a path of wholeness/completeness, for our ultimate destiny, path, goal is intimacy that the first Adam experienced with YHVH prior to the Fall. I don't know if I would call them 'gray areas'. I believe that YHVH commadments were meant to be obeyed as they are written, but that we are to prayerfuly consult *with Him* as to the practicalities. The Tzi-ttzit are a good example. His Word says wear them... and in not giving us the particulars I believe He is inviting us to intimacy with Him; we are invited to ask HIM how long.
LL: No such thing as gray areas in the word of YHVH.
JA: I think the gray areas or the areas of non-explanation are where He allows us to determine the 'how' ... example - Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, the command, is black and white. You either do or do not obey the command. But HOW you keep it holy, set it apart, is what makes it special and a reminder to each individual person/family. The Word says, 'do no regular work', but that is different for every individual even though the command is black and white. YHVH allows for creativity, interpretation, and individual freedom within the realm of His black and white commands. (Liked the person who mentioned tying the tzizits!)
DH: GG, I don't think you quite understood what I said.
When you get gray is when you try to make up your own rules of conduct without God's set black and white of Torah.
Yes, there are places where the exact how's are not set down in writing....which is what makes the variety in observance, but that is not gray, that is allowing each individual to choose *how* they go about setting apart the Sabbath, or tying the tzit tzit etc.
Gray is a mixture of essentially good and evil, but what fellowship do light and darkness have with each other.....?
SS: Gray areas are our activities in life which aren't specifically covered in the bible . Can we, enjoy an alcoholic drink? What about wearing make-up? Women in slacks? Smoking? Driving? Watching TV? Going out to a rock concert? Swimming? Cutting your hair?
JA: Good explanation of 'gray', Diane. Yeshua says that when we mix the holy (hot) and the profane (cold), we become gray (lukewarm). He vomits the lukewarm out of his mouth!
SS: Rom 14; 14-17 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
What it is the meaning of this verse? No food is unclean?
Celebrating birthdays is a gray area,I heard someone say that because in the Bible only evil people celebrated their birthdays we should not celebrate ,even though the Bible does not specifically condemn it.
DT: Gray areas are usually excuses and what I used to do when I was a former Baptist Minister. I called Gray areas liberty and really they were excuses for not doing the obvious black and white things in Torah.
SS: The law of God is black and white,the non-moral issues,cultural issues, this I think are the gray area.We are free,we are not in bondage,but we cannot use our freedom to offend others,or those who are weak,that would not be love
GH: SS, you asked the meaning of the verse you quoted. Using the Tenakh (old testament) as the foundation, we already know what is and is not food -this was addressed by YHVH in Leviticus, so we have no need to look elsewhere for an explanation of clean food vs. unclean meats. What is in question is whether those things already defined as 'food' by Elohim can be made unclean by acts of man, in this case foods sacrificed to idols. The answer is no - if Elohim says it is clean, it remains clean.
DT:
JA: DT... that response above was PERFECT! Thanks!
DT: Sure JA! I guess I have to be honest. I was a Minister who really messed it all up and I have to be real and help others not screw up like I did. I never want to offend anyone. Sadly I think that I do at times. But I have to be genuine and use my own life to help others. Before Torah and obedience in the Scriptures I was like everybody else in the Pulpit. I regret all of the mess I was taught and then taught to others. I was sincere, but sincerely wrong. I never meant to deceive but I did not know any better like I do now.
SS: DT, you are a Pastor? My experience has been in a church,non denomination church,but we believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior,I am not aware of my Pastor telling me that is okay to disobey the law of God,actually I don't think it ever happened.
Maybe it is just because we think we have to keep the 10 Commandments,and some other laws.I think there is such a misunderstanding about what is law and what is not law.No one would say it is okay to kill or lie because Jesus has forgiven you,but this is part of the 10 Commandments
Matt: DT said the very point I wanted to get to. Everyone kept focusing on the gray areas, the "hows", without seeing what today's churches teach the gray areas are - their opinions. But my point in asking as vague as I did was to see just how many people would see that the laws truly are black and white.
SS: You completely missed DT's point regarding teaching others. He has, in the past, done like many pastors still do - they teach against following Torah, or they simply don't teach it at all. And I would bet that your pastor DID, in fact, tell you that it was "okay to disobey the law of God" by telling you it was okay to eat pork, shark and scallops; that the Sabbath was Sunday and it didn't matter if you worked on that day, and all of the other things that pastors misteach about. If a person is non-Torah-observant, and they believe that following Torah is wrong, they are going to also teach that it is wrong.
It is when the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and convicts that person that the truths held in the Old Testament aren't "old" but rather still to be followed, that they will start teaching others (or try to) to do the same.
JA: Most pastors teach 'obey God', but without being willing to give concrete ways. When faced with a question of a concrete way, I was told, 'that's not for today.' More pastors don't teach anything at all. How many teach the least of the commandments let alone the greatest of the commandments? That is the determination of 'reward position in the kingdom of heaven' according to Yeshua. DT, my first thoughts were, 'what a humble man to admit such truths.' I sat in awe in my chair. My husband said, 'That man is one in a million!' Thank you. I don't know what is taught in seminaries, but I knew a young man, strong believer, after 4 years in seminary had no faith at all, didn't even believe the Bible to be inerrant Truth, and fell into new age beliefs and then he was given a church! We all need to be good Bereans and study the Word.
DT: Shalom everyone. I am just being honest I guess. I was with G-d and now I have to be with the sheep. As Matt said and Julie, if you preach you have to tell folks what to do in regard to holiness. They all are seeking and wanting to know how to be G-dly. They are real and very sincere. They really do want to please the L-rd, yet at the same time no one (used to be me) from the pulpit is telling them how concretely. Therefore it is all gray. Why? If there is not Torah today, then it has to be gray. It must be your Pastor's opinion! Or what used to be mine. Then G-d and His judgment is left behind. This opens the door to all kinds of doctrine. Because if again there is no Torah now, then you have to come up with your own beliefs too. I am a pretty smart guy. I am also an avid student of the Word. But if I do not use what G-d gave me in Torah, then these smart and good things are used to do what is right in my own eyes. I fabricate doctrines and ways of doing things. My intentions are indeed good but my wisdom is not like the Father's nor are my ways like His. Thus I find myself in sincere error. And then I teach my people this.
When this all happens then the concrete does occur in the bad way. We make gray areas as if they are what G-d teaches. We make the Gray areas as if they are Torah when in fact they are not :Thus sayeth the L-rd". But the sheep do not know any different. And then the gray become black and white to them. And this bad teaching is therefore passed down from one person to the next.
I have spent a lot of time discovering where I went wrong. G-d has revealed much to me. I have repented of this and now my mission is clear. I must teach His sheep who are sincere to not follow these gray areas anymore. I must show all that Torah is what is indeed black and white. Thus sayeth the L-rd is indeed just that. What I think or what I choose is filled with fault. What G-d decides stands forever!... Read More
Yeshua has gained for us the sacrificial atonement and the offering by blood as required in Torah. So following Torah is a matter of following what the Father says to do. My Friends I love you dearly and I only desire to show any that Torah is indeed the Word of G-d. It is relevant for today and is a matter of being like G-d. Imitating Him and being His people.We can no longer tell people to be holy and righteous and then not tell them how. We must tell them how to honor G-d. Simply saying that they must do so and then not let them follow Torah is ridiculous. If there is no Torah, then we do not have the doctrine to teach anyone! We can't tell them how to be holy or do the will of Elohim. Why? Because we have rejected the way that G-d gave us to know His will.
SS: Well,it came down just to Sunday worship and eating pork,that is were the difference is.I did ask the pastor why Sunday? Because it is the first day of the week that jesus met with his people and Pentecost also was on Sunday.God will lead me and tell me how to live,the Holy Spirit not a Pastor,he is just a man,a sinner like everyone else.I have to seek the truth,read the Bible and ask in prayer and listen to Him,I don't blame the pastor or the church,because it is between me and the Lord
Christians also believe that God has made all food clean. The only law that is not applicable today,is the temple law,because there is no temple,actually we are the temple of God.The sacrificial law also is not applicable,Jesus was the Ultimate sacrifice,we do not need to slaughter animals anymore for our sins,we can came into the Holy of Holy through His blood
JA: There is a difference between understanding what was created as food and what was not. All that was created as food is clean; all that was not meant to be food is not. The question I ask is 'what happened to change the pig, the horse, the rat, the eagle, or the camel when Yeshua died on the cross?
SS: I think the Scripture they use is 1 timothy 4:2-5
(3) forbidding to marry,and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.For every creature of God is good,and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
DT: But G-d did not create the pig to be received with thanksgiving since it is an abomination. G-d's Word and prayer does not sanctify pork or any unclean food. When it speaks of prayer and thanksgiving it is referring to Jewish blessing after a meal. One cannot thank G-d nor bless Him after eating that which is unclean. And the Scriptures never condone blessing an abomination.
G-d was the one who forbade the unclean not man as in these verses you referred to in 1 Timothy 4.
SS: I also notice that some Christians do not eat pork and shell fish,in fact I have listened to a christian nutritionist who wrote books on the subject: Eat drink and be healthy,who also believe that this foods should not be eaten and are unclean,and he is a christian,so it is not all of us
DT: That's a very good point SS. Not everyone has gone against the Father. Absolutely. Yet I would say what many Rabbi's in History have said about eating pork or bacon. Rabbi, do you abstain from pork because it is vile? No said the Rabbi. What the student proclaimed! My son I love the taste of meat and I am sure that It would be tasty indeed by the smell of it cooking. So why would you not eat it Rabbi? I would and do abstain for the sole reason that Adonai forbids it! His words determine my rejection of it.
So even though pork may be lean or even if one refuses to eat it based upon health reasons, this all may be well and fine. Yet one should abstain from even the joyous if Torah tell su that our G-d abhors it. I would never again eat sugar and all the confections it makes, if my Father told me to never eat it again. Health is an ok reason, but love for G-d is far better. Not a rebuke at all. Just some information to bring understanding.
Torah in regard to food may not have anything at all to do with the fact that it is healthy or unhealthy. It is simply that G-d said no or yes. Obedience is far better than sacrifice.
JA: Yes, I had someone ask me years ago, "If you found out pork was the cure all for all disease and cancer, would you then eat it?" It's not about health, it's about faith. :)
SS: Yes DT, it should be done for obedience,I am Italian it has been hard to give up on those ribs.What about krill oil? That is from shrimps,it is good for your health,are we allowed to take it?
DT: SS, you are a wise woman. I can see how YHWH has spoken to you. He did me too. It was very very hard. More tough than can be imagined really. I am nit sure If you know my story here lately but is so hard and painful. Yet I must do what G-d says. Even at the risk of loss. Isn't that what Yeshua said? Can I go to war or finish that building I have started? Yes, if G-d has told me to do so. And He has. I must be faithful and finish what He started in me.
I would not even use the smallest drop or part of an unclean anything. If the animal is unclean would not the oil or the scales or the smallest appendage. Even as our dear sister put it, even if it cured cancer, I would not take it or use it. If the disease is bad just imagine what the end of an abomination would be for me!
...this is where the conversation has currently stopped.
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Thank you for sharing this with all of us, Mattit. It is so refreshing to see good honest dialog about very sensitive and powerful topics such as this.
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